Electronics Gurus : Injector Resistors

dohcvtec

#1 โ—ˆ 2012-09-19

hello guys

isn't these two diagrams equal? as long as two injectors or more injectors firing doesn't overlap...

this could simplify the installation of peak and hold injectors (honda obd0 and turbo mitsu 440cc's) on obd1 cars!

blundar

#2 โ—ˆ 2012-09-19

Re: Electronics Gurus : Injector Resistors

overheating / load might be of concern... I got a resistor box I'll give you for price of shipping Javier...

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dohcvtec

#3 โ—ˆ 2012-09-19

Re: Electronics Gurus : Injector Resistors

yes but i had a 1991 Civic Si, w/ the friggin injector box... i never noticed if it was hot.

anyone of you noticed a heating on that resistor box? coming of course of electrical means, not engine related ...

Andrew Shinn

#4 โ—ˆ 2012-09-19

Re: Electronics Gurus : Injector Resistors

I just got back from a long drive and my Accord's resistor box is cool.

blundar

#5 โ—ˆ 2012-09-19

Re: Electronics Gurus : Injector Resistors

is there a point when more than one injector is open at once? if there EVER is, your idea will not work.

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dohcvtec

#6 โ—ˆ 2012-09-19

Re: Electronics Gurus : Injector Resistors

why not? :)

John Doe

#7 โ—ˆ 2012-09-19

Re: Electronics Gurus : Injector Resistors

why are we even debating this? Just go buy 4 radioshack resistors, came out to like $2.00. The resistors are sold in pairs of 2 anyways.

dohcvtec

#8 โ—ˆ 2012-09-19

Re: Electronics Gurus : Injector Resistors

because 1 would be sexier!

well it's a matter of easyness between using obd1 injectors and obd0...

Joseph Davis

#9 โ—ˆ 2012-09-19

Re: Electronics Gurus : Injector Resistors

It's just like sexy bitches, bro... the more you have, the better time you have.

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Christopher Favreau

#10 โ—ˆ 2012-09-19

Re: Electronics Gurus : Injector Resistors

I thought the honda ECU's were batch fire.... and if they are sequential they are batch fire at a certain point so USE 4.... If you want it to look like one and make it sexy... make a Aluminum heat sink to glue them to and polish it.

Or better yet ... get the ones that have heat sinks already... those are really nice. They aren't that expensive either...

Or even better .... glue pictures of me on the white radio shack ones.... then they would be one set of Sexy Bitches....

dohcvtec

#11 โ—ˆ 2012-09-19

Re: Electronics Gurus : Injector Resistors

okay okay

blundar email me with your price for the friggin box

blundar

#12 โ—ˆ 2012-09-19

Re: Electronics Gurus : Injector Resistors

$5 to ship it.

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tungsten2k

#13 โ—ˆ 2012-09-19

Re: Electronics Gurus : Injector Resistors

you'd be playing with fire. if each injector doesn't have it's own resistor, once the injector pulse is over and the circuit is cut, the current through the injector will want to remain constant, decaying over time via the L/R time constant. that current is going to follow the path of least resistance.

when the voltage across the injector is cut, the induced emf will drain through R, but will also show full spike voltage across the other injectors (against the normal flow of the injector driver circuit.) basically you'd have 4 weak Kettering ignition systems trying to lightly back-load your injectors and ecu in succession. longevity of the injector driver circuits can't be good in a situation like this. also, driving the other injectors with reverse current probably isn't the best thing either. overheating possibility ? ? ?

the reason this isn't as big an issue with saturated injectors is that their impedance is higher and the current flowing through them is apparently low enough that the injector driver circuitry can take the relatively small cut-induced voltage spike.

google (unquoted) "LR circuit current" for more fun.

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tungsten2k

#14 โ—ˆ 2012-09-19

Re: Electronics Gurus : Injector Resistors

stumbled across this... simple but interesting read on injector driver circuit design and this exact problem, specifically the slowing of the injector close speed due to draining of the flyback voltge through the other injectors : http://www.bgsoflex.com/v22/msv22.html

the exerpt:

"If you look on the "output" circuit page, you will notice a modification to the method of which flyback voltages transients generated by the injectors are "clamped". On the V1.01 boards, each driver had a diode which was back-biased directly across the injector. This diode position in the circuit worked well in clamping the kickback produced when the injector current is released, which protects the driver FET from overvoltage, as well as operating very cool during PWM current-limit mode, since the voltage drop is only 0.7 volts. However, this circuit configuration recycled the kickback current through the injector(s), which tends to lengthen the closing time - the amount of time depends on the number of injectors and their impedance, but the delay is in the tenths of milliseconds region. This was not a problem in most applications, because the injector close time was a constant value each time the injector cycled, and showed up as an offset which was simply tuned out when setting up the VE table.

However, there were a few installations where large injectors were employed, with the resulting idle pulsewidths down in the 1.0 millisecond region. The problem here is with such a short pulsewidth, it is difficult to tune the idle due to both the resolution of the MS system (0.1 ms time) and the fact that short open times are dominated by fuel delivered during the opening time of the injector. So, for large injector setups with short idle pulsewidths, the slower injector closing time imposed by the simple recirculation diode increased the magnitude of this effect.

So, a more conventional flyback diode placement was tried in the field, where a zener is placed backwards around the driver FET. What occurs is when the injector closes, the flyback voltage builds until it exceeds the zener diode breakdown voltage (around 36 volts or so) and then the excess voltage is conducted around the FET. This allows the injector to close faster than in the recirculating setup on the V1.01 board. And, the resulting faster closing time helps out those with short idle pulsewidths.

Now, the wrinkle of this is that the MS utilizes a Pulse-Width Modulation (PWM) mode for current-limiting of low-impedance injector setups. When the PWM mode is activated, the resulting PWM waveform causes a flyback spike for each on-to-off current transistion, which has to be clamped. So, the power dissipation requirements of the zener diode is significant when the PWM mode is active. Trials indicated that even 5 watt zener diodes do not survive long with certain injector setups.

To help with the power-dissipation issue, a transistor curcuit was employed to sink the heat generated during the PWM current limit. The transistor Q1 (PNP) acts as a large zener diode - the resistor from emitter to base keeps the transistor off until the voltage exceeds the breakdown rating of the zener diode between the base and collector. This transistor (TO-220 package) is heat-sinked to the ground plane of the board, which provides plenty of power dissipation for any injector setup. So, the result is fast injector closing time and good power dissipation for flyback currents."

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Post Edited (05-31-03 13:58)