Progress of another noob

ntc490

#31 ◈ 2014-06-23

Thanks man. I hope it helps. I find myself using it as a reference for wiring and stuff from time to time, too. :) I may create a PDF version and post it on my website or something some day.

I'd like to continue adding more information; just haven't had time to do anything with my car for the last couple months. When it warms up it will get harder not to start things up again. :)

trance

#32 ◈ 2014-06-23

Very informative, good work !

klatinn

#33 ◈ 2014-06-23

Hi,

Just a heads-up:

We've just completed a plugin for Logworks2 that allows you to datalog concurrently into LogWorks from the Honda ECUs (just like Crome and Freelog) concurrently and synchronized with all innovate motorsports devices. It will be on our website at http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support.php probably Monday or Tuesday available for free download.

The Honda plugin works similarly to the plugins we already have for MUT and SSM over OBDII for Subaru and Evos, and the plugins we also have for XEDE and Megasquirt.

The plugins and LogWorks are free downloads. The only caveat is that you will need 2 serial ports or USB serial adapters. One for the ECU, and one for the innovate MTS devices. Also, LogWorks will only work if at least one innovate device is connected and provides data, as the innovate devices are the data timing and synchronisation source.

I will start a separate thread when the plugin is available for download.

Regards,
Klaus

pacman

#34 ◈ 2014-06-23

klatinn wrote:
Hi,

Just a heads-up:

We've just completed a plugin for Logworks2 that allows you to datalog concurrently into LogWorks from the Honda ECUs (just like Crome and Freelog) concurrently and synchronized with all innovate motorsports devices. It will be on our website at http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support.php probably Monday or Tuesday available for free download.

The Honda plugin works similarly to the plugins we already have for MUT and SSM over OBDII for Subaru and Evos, and the plugins we also have for XEDE and Megasquirt.

The plugins and LogWorks are free downloads. The only caveat is that you will need 2 serial ports or USB serial adapters. One for the ECU, and one for the innovate MTS devices. Also, LogWorks will only work if at least one innovate device is connected and provides data, as the innovate devices are the data timing and synchronisation source.

I will start a separate thread when the plugin is available for download.

Regards,
Klaus


Nice! 8)

tse

#35 ◈ 2014-06-23

cool, nice timing, just got the LMA-3 and LC-1 bij mail :D

ntc490

#36 ◈ 2014-06-23

Thanks for the great news in recent posts and all the props. I've started another thread for this info so this thread can remain somewhat focused on its original topic. The new thread can be found below.

http://forum.pgmfi.org/viewtopic.php?p=85131#85131

dragoth

#37 ◈ 2014-06-23

Excellent thread! Great documentation!

I'll be referring to this soon as I start to tune my newly acquired "franken-civic"!

Keep up the great work!

8)

ntc490

#38 ◈ 2014-06-23

Thanks for the encouragement. Sorry it is taking so long to update things. I haven't worked on my car one bit. It's starting to get frustrating. Gotta work to pay the bills, too, I guess. :(

Send me a pm when you get your project running - would be interested in seeing what you've done.

ntc490

#39 ◈ 2014-06-23

I added a HOWTO link for soldering information that I found in an issue of Servo Magazine. Search for NOSS_SolderNotesV6 on the first page of the thread. Enjoy!

ntc490

#40 ◈ 2014-06-23

TunerTee - More Accurate NBO2 Readings in Crome

It's been taking forever to complete the tune on my car due to lack of time. I was also frustrated trying to tune with the LC1 setup I had - just too much noise on the ECU o2 input for me to quickly and safely create a safe tune. I had an idea in December of last year to solve my tuning problems by creating something I call a TunerTee. See my thread at http://forum.pgmfi.org/viewtopic.php?t=13707 for more detail. How many times have you seen people asking how to get the AFR value in Crome to read the same as in Logworks? It wasn't close enough for me - now it's identical without any doubt.


Source a WBO2 Sensor for your LC1 Locally

I got the TunerTee working and found that my wbo2 sensor is bad. It's throwing a code 8 after only a few minutes - even when the car isn't running, so it's not a heat issue. The LC1 was working just fine earlier this year. I need to try recalibrating it before spending the money on a new sensor, but I'm not very hopeful at this point.

I made some calls to figure out where I could get my hands on a new wbo2 sensor without waiting for the mail man. I know you can get them online cheaper, but I'm just too impatient and time is money right now for me. Now that I have my TunerTee working I'm excited to start tuning and update this thread again. In the mean time I thought I would give more information on my research to help others find wbo2 sensors that will work with an LC1 locally.

First of all, the wbo2 sensor I'm looking for is a Bosch LSU 4.2. It has a Bosch Part number of 0258 007 057, which some local part stores seemed to be able to use and others didn't. The Bosh US part number is 17014 according to one of the online resources I checked. I haven't tried using that number with local part sources to see if it works or not. The Volkswagen part number is 021-906-262-B. That reference worked at quite a few part sources here.

I called around to local stores and found prices as listed below:
Code:
Autozone -  $50.99 (Quoted $159.99 a while ago.  Not accurate any more)
NAPA     -  $69.99 (initially quoted $55.99)
IMParts  -  $68.64
Checker  -  $73.99


Online resources:
http://www.1stVwParts.com - buy sensors online here. Said to be the cheapest source.
InnovateMotorsports - they have replacements, too of course. More expensive than even local sources, though.
http://www.wbo2.com/lsu - great source of data for part numbers, pics, and design and operation theory.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465&highlight=open+heater - Info on VW models, etc.

Part Numbers:
VW Part Number 021-906-262-B
Bosch Part Number 0258 007 057
Bosch US Part Number 17014

Autos that use the same wbo2:
VW 1.8T and 2.8L VR6 Golf, Jetta and Turbo Beetle
Any 2002-2003 VW model with the 1.8L Turbo


Update on 9-20-07

I bought a new sensor from Autozone yesterday for $54.48 with tax. It came with a 12 month warranty. I priced checker and it was about the same price, too. I used the 17014 part number. Put it in the car last night and it works great.

ntc490

#41 ◈ 2014-06-23

LC1 Sensor Debugging - It Lives Again!

I managed to get my wbo2 sensor working again. I was getting code 8 quite frequently and hadn't recalibrated for quite some time. According to the docs shipped with my LC1, a recalibration is the first thing to try - replacing the sensor is second.

I pulled the wbo2 out of my exhaust, disconnected it from the controller, turned on the key and waited for 20 seconds, turned off the key, plugged in the sensor and then keyed up the ignition again to ensure that the LC1 executed a complete heater and sensor calibration. Unfortunately the LC1 was showing code 2 (open heater) even with the sensor connected. I thought it strange that the heater worked just fine a minute ago and now showed open.

Since I knew the connection was good between the LC1 and its sensor, I decided to measure the heater in my wbo2 with an Ohmeter to verify the LC1's findings. I found a few threads on the wbo2.com and Innovate MotorSports website that helped me figure out what pins to measure and what values to expect for a working sensor. See the links below.

http://wbo2.com/cable/lsuconns.htm - Connector pinout information. See the 7057.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/foru ... pen+heater - Someone with the same problem measured 2.5 Ohms on the heater wires. Also indicates what pins to measure.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/foru ... pen+heater - The heater resistance should measure 2 - 5 Ohms. Pins noted here, too.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/foru ... pen+heater - info on error code 8; causes, etc.

I measured 2.5 Ohms across the heater in my sensor, which seemed to indicate that the heater was fine - just what I thought. Considering it worked just fine a little while ago, it seemed fishy that the heater would break when not even connected to anything. I started thinking about what else might be wrong. One of the suggestions I found was to check the ground. I found that the ground to my engine block for the heater had become faulty over the last few months. Instead of fixing it, I changed back to using the chassis grounds inside the car and everything started working great again. I performed a calibration and got ready to tune.


Summary

Measure between pins 3 and 4 of the sensor to find the heater coil resistance. It's the middle pins of each row of three. The value should be anywhere from 2.5 to 8 Ohms in a good sensor.

LC1 Error code 8 debugging guide:
Quote:
Hi,

If your sensor is showing error 8, it can mean one of the following things:

1. Sensor overheated
2. Sensor undercooled
3. Sensor broken
4. Heater calibration of the LC-1 not done correctly
5. Bad heater ground.

Number 1 and 2 happen only under certain circumstances, like WOT. Number 2 is often related to number 5.

Reason Number 4 and 5 are the most common reasons, number 3 the least common.

Regards,
Klaus
Reply With Quote



Side Note:

Now that I have my TunerTee working, there is no need to worry about keeping the ground of my ECU close to the ground of my LC1. The LC1 data is coupled via a digital connection instead of using the analog output. This makes my installation easier and the AFR data in Crome is much more accurate to boot!

ntc490

#42 ◈ 2014-06-23

A Tuning Guide for Noobs / Tuning HOWTO

Disclaimer: Tuning is where my knowledge of things starts to get thin. My goal for this thread is to provide links to information I found useful and then try to give a different slant on the fundamentals in an effort to make understanding the tuning process easier for noobs. Please be sure you understand this stuff well before you try tuning on your own. Take responsibility for your own actions!


Tuning Links on PGMFI

It goes without saying that you should read the entire Wiki many times until you understand everything. I've also included some links here that proved very helpful for me. Keep in mind that even the data here should not be trusted 100%. Question everything until you understand! There were a couple of points here and there that I don't agree with - but I could be wrong, too. :)

The Ickyhonda Tuning Guide.
Blundar's tuning Theory.
Jeff Evnas Tuning.
ECT correction tables explained by blundar.
Tuning advice from bigwig for a B16 motor, good advice on timing in last post. Bad links to pics of fuel and timing tables.
Car tuned on Mustang Dyno by blundar - some tuning explanation included.
Spark plug reading HOWTO.
D16Z6 timing.
General tuning procedure explained.
Author of Progress of a Simple Minded Noob asks about timing.
Open vs. closed loop question. Setting Open/Closed loop switch-over in Crome.
Fighting detonation. Winter vs. summer tune idea.
Extra Features plugin - stickied in Crome forum.
Tuning HOWTO, short explanation on RPM and load control.
Street Tuning tips, plug reading links. More Simple Minded Noob stuff.
Datalogging HOWTO.
Some good tuning theory. - A lot of bashing! If you can make it through the banter you will find a couple of gems of knowledge. Theory on fooling the ECU into using other AFRs in closed loop operation using a programmable LC1 output. Klatinn gives some good input to end any disputes.
Using Autotune - mostly success stories, some theory about crossing lines in maps, etc. Need quick laptop.
Knock logger not worth much. A little on detonation and a plug reading link. Deluded gives some data about plug selection.
General guidelines, some info on EGT and timing, wbo2 and fuel tuning.
DIY Det can HOWTO.


Books on Tuning

I have read these books and recommend them. The second book has a short section on tuning procedure and is the only book I've found that addresses it at all. There are probably more good books to reference. Please PM links if you have some.

Maximum Boost: Designing, Testing, and Installing Turbocharger Systems
How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems
Introduction to Internal Combustion Engines


Classes on EFI

The only class I'm aware of is held in locations around the country. Just log on to their site and pick a time and a place. I haven't been to the class, but think it might be fun to take one day. Do a search to see what others think of it. You'll find both good and bad feedback on the class.

EFI101 - EFI University


Engine Basics from 10,000 Feet

Engines are complicated machines that convert chemical energy into mechanical energy. There are many factors that determine how a combustion engine will behave at any given point in time. Things like amount of fuel in the combustion chamber, amount of oxygen in the combustion chamber, the temperature of the air, the timing of the spark, the load on the engine, and the humidity are only a start to a long list of items that determine how a motor functions. Tuning an ECU is the art of controlling certain parameters to make the engine perform in a desired manner.

We can only control a relatively small number of parameters to the engine from the ECU. The main things we can control are the amount of fuel that enters the combustion chamber, and when spark is applied to that charge. The ECU's purpose is to manipulate these parameters in relation to many other environmental factors to yield the best result. The best result is defined as maximum power, best fuel economy, lowest emissions, safest operation, or any combination thereof.

Since the ECU must manipulate fuel and spark delivery in relation to other environmental factors, it must measure those other factors. Parameters that the ECU must measure are the amount of air flowing into the engine (via MAF or MAP), IAT (Intake Air Temperature), ECT (Engine Coolant Temperature), TPS (Throttle Position Sensor), Engine Speed (RPM - tach), Engine Position (via Crank position sensor or distributor signal), and engine load (MAP), to name a few. The ECU may also check the status of other items such as oil pressure and/or knock sensor to make sure nothing dangerous can happen to the motor, but these don't need to be considered during the tuning process.

The main things that tuners manipulate to change the way their motor behaves are fuel and timing. The ECU must be instructed how these two things should be controlled for many different combinations of the parameters listed above. The manner in which the ECU is given this instruction varies by motor and ECU type.

This thread focuses on the Speed Density paradigm, since that's what most, if not all, OBD1 Honda engines use. Speed Density systems manipulate fuel and spark based on two main parameters: MAP sensor output and RPM.

The ECU uses tables for fuel and spark which are indexed by MAP and RPM sensor readings. Tables are a very simple way for computers to determine how they should behave for any combination of input parameters. In a Honda Speed Density system, at any given time the ECU finds the row associated with the current RPM and the column associated with the current MAP reading, takes the data at the intersecting point, and uses that to deliver the right amount of fuel or timing. The ECU does this in rapid succession, over and over again, to make the engine run.

Of course, other parameters play a factor in how much fuel or timing must be delivered to the engine, but these factors are less significant and usually result in a simple mathematical manipulation of the value obtained from the table lookup.


Engine Basics - Summary

What does all this mean? In a nutshell, tuning is the art of controlling the many different parameters that affect engine functionality, making changes to fuel and timing tables, and ensuring that the desired results are achieved by taking measurements that paint a picture of how the motor is performing. It's making changes to the instructions given to the ECU so that the motor will perform best.

Remember your science experiments in school or College? Remember the Scientific Method? All that stuff is very useful for tuners. The better you are at controlling parameters that affect your engine and manipulating them one by one in a safe manner, the more you will understand its operation and be able to affect it the way you want. For tuners, that means making sure the AFR (Air Fuel Ratio) and timing are set safely and the motor makes lots of usable power.


Fuel and Timing Basics

A motor wants to run at stoich most of the time. In very basic and somewhat loose terms, the stoich fuel mixture is one that burns most completely in the combustion chamber and will yield highest efficiency. The value of stoich varies depending upon fuel type. For the purposes of this post, we'll use 14.7:1, which means 14.7 parts of air to 1 part fuel for pump gasoline. Motors like to run a little richer than stoich when they are required to work harder.

Spark must be delivered to the combustion chamber at just the right time if the fuel and air in the chamber are to burn in a manner that will make the engine turn safely. If the spark is too early or too late, the motor will generate less torque (twisting force) and/or be damaged, depending upon how premature or late the spark is. In general, as the engine turns faster spark should be delivered sooner.

Spark timing is always measured relative to a certain rotational position of the motor. We call this position TDC (top dead center), which is when the piston in the number one cylinder is in its highest position. Since we want to ignite the air/fuel mixture at approximately TDC, we need to create a spark in the combustion chamber before the piston gets there - it takes time for the air and fuel to ignite and start expanding. The faster the motor is turning, the earlier the spark will have to be initiated if the intake charge is to properly ignite at the correct motor position. Changes in timing can make big changes in how much power the motor makes. Improperly setting the timing can destroy a motor, too.

The relationship between engine RPM and spark advance is explained by the formula 'd = v * t', where 'd' is the distance before top dead center, 'v' is the speed of the motor (RPM), and 't' is the time it takes for the air/fuel to ignite. Let's assume for now that 't', or the time it takes for the air/fuel to ignite, is constant. We see that as the RPM (v) increases 'd', which is the amount of spark advance that is required, will increase in proportion. Think about it for a moment - remember those physics classes? :) BTW - 't' isn't really constant because the air/fuel mixture takes different amounts of time to ignite depending upon other factors such as charge density and temperature, but those are less significant details you can learn about as you get more advanced.


What Do Tuners Do?

In summary, as a tuner your goal is to set the fuel and timing maps so your engine runs right. There are other parameters you may have to change too, like ECT and IAT compensation, idle speed, red line RPM, etc. These items will differ depending upon the motor, ECU, and vehicle you are tuning. You'll have to read, study and experiment to get them right.


Tools of the Trade

How do you know when you are changing things the right way? You must rely on sensors to give you feedback into how the motor is behaving. The main sensors you will use as a tuner are a wbo2 (Wide Band O2) sensor, possibly and EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature) sensor and a det can, which can be your ear in some cases. You need to ensure that the AFR (Air Fuel Ratio) measured by your wbo2 is correct (quite often stoich, but not always), your EGT isn't too high, and that the engine isn't detonating. Of course the generation of peak torque is always a good thing, too. This can be measured by accelerometers (like a GTech), a butt dyno, a timing device, or preferably a real dyno.

Refer back to earlier posts from this thread for a shopping list of things you might purchase to start tuning. A wbo2 is essential for tuning - trying to tune without one is asking for big trouble. $200 for an LC1 is a small investment to make when you consider the alternative.

The more data you can get while tuning, the better picture you'll have about what's going on inside your motor. Getting datalogging working on your ECU will give lots of data that can help you figure out what your motor needs in any given situation. Datalogging will enable you to record all your sensors in relation to each other so you can study how they work and interact with each other even after your motor has stopped running. It is an invaluable tool and will teach you a lot about how motors work.

In addition to the ECU sensors, I log readings for fuel pressure, AFR via an LC1 wbo2, and EGT. Although I don't have a det can, I would like to have one. There's a link to build one above. Be creative and have fun while you learn!


More Tuning HOWTO to Come

I'll try to give some tips and a use scenario tuning with Crome shortly. I have been tuning my car using Crome - it seems to be running great now. I still have more tweaking to do, but am very happy with the progress I have made. I am making more HP using Crome than I was using an FMU. Best of all I am prepared to start safely adding more boost to build more power, which couldn't be done with my previous configuration. Stay tuned...

IamCool

#43 ◈ 2014-06-23

That last post was some good stuff. Keep up the good work and reasearch.

ntc490

#44 ◈ 2014-06-23

Status Update

A few things have taken place since my last post. Unfortunately nothing too exciting. I did make an expensive mistake that you might learn from. Read on if you wish to gain from my pain.

I started tuning my car again. I thought things were going well - AFRs were adjusted nicely and the car was pulling stronger than it ever had. I checked the plugs for signs of detonation thinking that they would be clean. Unfortunately I observed signs of moderate detonation; pepper and small balls of aluminum on the plug insulators. Guess my ears aren't as good at picking up detonation as I had hoped. Detonation can be very challenging to hear with the naked ear.

I made a det can found viewtopic.php?t=13691 and started driving around to figure out where my problem was. The det can works really well; albeit at the cost of looking a little foolish. I had a lot of pinging in the low RPM range, but couldn't hear any while in boost.

I concentrated on the low RPM portions of the fuel maps to see if I could reduce the pinging. After adding a bunch of fuel to the appropriate sections, I reduced detonation quite a bit. It still sounded a little rough around 2500 RPM.

I got new plugs and checked things again. Still seeing signs of detonation on the plugs; only black pepper this time. I thought I would verify my base timing, and check the health of my engine with a compression test. You can see some details viewtopic.php?t=13756.

My timing was correct. I took 1 degree out just to be on the safe side. Looking at my plugs it appears that things are a little hot, so I will also try a colder plug. Unfortunately, it doesn't make sense to me why I would need a colder plug at this point since I'm keeping the car out of boost - it should run like stock, which used an even hotter plug than what I have.


No Spark

I lashed the valves and did a compression test. In my haste I failed to disconnect the coil when doing my compression test and fried my coil. I didn't realize it at the time, but my car wouldn't start after I put everything back together again. Don't do what I did - stupidity costs money! I have done compression tests in the past and disconnected the dizzy; didn't have any problems then. You can see my thread about a "no spark condition" at http://honda-tech.com/zeropost?cmd=tshow&id=1983434.

Compression on the motor is good. It measured 180, 179, 180, 181. I also sealed up an exhaust leak on the waste gate, which cleaned things up a bit and richened up readings on the wbo2. An exhaust leak will make o2 sensor readings show leaner than they are. The readings also used to jump around more than they do now that everything is sealed up good and tight.


Tuning Again

I took a drive in my car for the first time in a week tonight. I've been *so* crabby thinking about my car not even running for a while now. I still seem to have some detonation around 2500 RPM even though AFRs are good. The car pulls strong - I couldn't resist taking it into boost even though I should have kept it out to narrow down where it's pinging. I don't hear any ping while in boost, even with the det can.

I will pull the plugs in the morning and then try a colder set if I still see signs of detonation. If that doesn't work I will try pulling timing from the maps until things sound clean. My timing is completely stock when not in boost and retards .75 deg/# when in boost.

Stay tuned... I'm getting better at changing my fuel maps to bring AFRs where I want them. I'll post details on how I street tune on my own without too much drama or risk.

dj_spark

#45 ◈ 2014-06-23

Very educative post, I love it 8)